Reigning in Hell

Background

I'm slowly reading The Odyssey with a friend. There was a great line by Achilles that reminded me of John Milton's Satan from Paradise lost. These literary giants have opposing ideas about what it means to rule in hell.

Introduction

 

Is it better to reign in hell or serve in heaven? How important is having glory if you die young/younger?

Milton's Satan on Reigning in Hell

"The mind is its own place, and in it self
Can make a Heav'n of Hell, a Hell of Heav'n. [ 255 ]
What matter where, if I be still the same,
And what I should be, all but less then he
Whom Thunder hath made greater? Here at least
We shall be free; th' Almighty hath not built
Here for his envy, will not drive us hence: [ 260 ]
Here we may reign secure, and in my choyce
To reign is worth ambition though in Hell:
Better to reign in Hell, then serve in Heav'n.
But wherefore let we then our faithful friends,
Th' associates and copartners of our loss [ 265 ]
Lye thus astonisht on th' oblivious Pool,
And call them not to share with us their part
In this unhappy Mansion, or once more
With rallied Arms to try what may be yet
Regaind in Heav'n, or what more lost in Hell? [ 270 ]"

Homer's Achilles on Reigning in Hell

"βουλοίμην κ᾽ ἐπάρουρος ἐὼν θητευέμεν ἄλλῳ,
ἀνδρὶ παρ᾽ ἀκλήρῳ, ᾧ μὴ βίοτος πολὺς εἴη,
ἢ πᾶσιν νεκύεσσι καταφθιμένοισιν ἀνάσσειν."

"I would rather be a laborer working for another man—some poor man who has little to live on—than rule over all the dead who have perished." GPT Literal TranslationMilton

Milton's Interpretations (extremely oversimplified)

One way to read Satan is as the hero of the story. Satan is the individualistic, defiant hero representing personal freedom. "The mind is its own place." Even if in Hell, in Paradise Lost, Satan has freedom to choose.

The flip side is that Satan is tragic figure. Satan has deluded himself into the thinking the ideas from the previous paragraph are great. His love for his personal freedom creates his downfall. Satan is delusional about the reality of his situation.

One interpretation that blends the previous two ideas is that Satan is a political allegory for Milton. Milton was a political activist who supported Oliver Cromwell in the Puritan revolution against the monarchy. The monarchy was abolished and King Charles executed. After Cromwell's death, the monarchy was restored and Charles II became king. Milton was arrested, briefly imprisoned, and placed on house arrest. He is the fallen and tragic hero. Satan is an allegory for Milton.

Readers can choose for themselves how to interpret Satan's statement.

Homer's Interpretation

In Homer's Illiad, Achilles is given the choice between two fates. In book 9, Achilles tells Odysseus, Phoenix, and Ajax:

"For my mother the goddess, silver-footed Thetis, tells me
that two fates sweep me on to my death. If I stay here and fight,
I shall not return alive, but my glory will be undying forever.
If I return home to my dear fatherland, my glory is lost,
but my life will be long, and death will not come to me quickly."

Achilles chooses kleos (glory) after his friend Patroclus is killed in battle by Hector. Achilles dies young and his glory lives on.

But in the underworld, Achilles has a change of heart or mind, or whatever the dead possess. As the dead, Achilles regrets his kleos. Not only would he have preferred his long peaceful life, he would even prefer the life as a servant of a poor man.

What a contrast! What good is glory when one is dead?

 

Conclusion

 

I love all the passages and lines shared above. I love Miltion's take on Satan. I love Satan's desire for freedom. I love his defiance. I also love how Achilles regrets his kleos.

 

It's not an easy choice for me. I would like to be remembered. I do not like the idea of everything about me being forgotten, but I don't like the idea of dying either.

 

If given Achilles original fates, I'd choose a long forgettable life. I agree with Satan that the mind is a place. We can create a heaven of hell or a hell of heaven. I'll take my chances with a long life.

 

 

The Odyssey Book 11 lines 489-491 Translations

Samuel Butler (1900) – More Direct, Readable

"Say not a word," he replied, "in death’s favor; I would rather be a paid servant in a poor man's house and be above ground than king of kings among the dead." 

Robert Fitzgerald (1961) – Formal and Poetic

"Let me hear no smooth talk of death from you, Odysseus,
light of councils. Better, I say, to break sod as a farm hand
for some poor country man, on iron rations,
than lord it over all the exhausted dead."

Richmond Lattimore (1965) – More Literal, Preserves Greek Structure

"O shining Odysseus, never try to console me for dying.
I would rather follow the plow as thrall to another
man, one with no land allotted him and not much to live on,
than be a king over all the perished dead."

Robert Fagles (1996) – Lyrical and Poetic

"No winning words about death to me, shining Odysseus!
By god, I’d rather slave on earth for another man—
some dirt-poor tenant farmer who scrapes to keep alive—
than rule down here over all the breathless dead."

Emily Wilson (2018) – Modern, Iambi

"Odysseus, don’t try to sell me on death.
I’d rather be a hired hand back up on earth,
Slaving away for some poor dirt farmer,
Than lord it over all these withered dead."

The Iliad, Book 9, lines 410–416 English Translations:
 

Richmond Lattimore (1951):

"For my mother the goddess, silver-footed Thetis, tells me
that two fates sweep me on to my death. If I stay here and fight,
I shall not return alive, but my glory will be undying forever.
If I return home to my dear fatherland, my glory is lost,
but my life will be long, and death will not come to me quickly."

Robert Fagles (1990):

"Two fates bear me on to the day of death.
If I hold out here and I lay siege to Troy,
my journey home is gone, but my glory never dies.
If I voyage back to the fatherland I love,
my pride, my glory dies…
true, but the life that's left me will be long,
the stroke of death will not come on me quickly."

Things I've Changed My Mind On (Rough Draft/Running List)

Introduction

I like to think of myself as a critical thinker who is open to changing my mind based on evidence and better information. I acknowledge that I most likely delude myself into thinking I am more rational, open minded, and critical of myself than I actually am. So I admit, I must be less critical and rational than I think I am.

Most people think they're open minded. But I see most people very closed off to differing ideas. We all use my side biases, selection biases, confirmation biases, etc. Changing our minds is a good indicator of our open mindedness. It's very unlikely that we knew or know everything at 20, 30, 40 years old, or anyone other age of our lives.

This is going to be a running list of examples of when and how I've changed my opinion about topics of at least some importance.

College was a huge change for me ideologically. Then learning about economics has transformed the way I think. For the most part I feel I haven't changed much at all. When I read things I wrote 10-20 years ago, I'm surprised how much I agree and or think the same. I would say I'm just a lot better informed.

I'm not sure my values have changed. I've always valued freedom, honesty, and generally being a good person.

THE LIST 

Vegan- I stopped eating animals in 2008 as an experiment. I kept it up for environmental reason. (~2013)I continue today for animal suffering reasons.

Evolution- I thought evolution was nonsense until I went to college. I don't remember learning about it, but, eventually I learned the theory biology and have read or listened to multiple books on evolution.

Environmentalism- in college (~2008) I bought into all the alarmism. I was fearing all the forests would be covered in cities in 50 years. I remember arguing with people about this. I think my initial motivation was my love for the outdoors. As I learned more over the years (~2020), I realized how the issue has been politicized and used by the media to sell fear. I still think it is a big issue, but not the biggest, probably not top five. I predict depopulation will produce more problems for humanity than climate change. 

Abortion- (college ~2007-2008) I was against abortions until I learned more about human development. When I learned how often women naturally abort/miscarriage and how long it takes for a fetus to be physically distinguishable from other mammals, I quickly altered my opinion. Over the last few years (~2022), I've had a growing sympathy for pro life arguments.

America- (2001) I was an extremely patriotic young man. In college, again (~2005-9), I grew more and more disgusted with America. I flopped again. I'm an American apologist now (~2024). I think American is one of the greatest countries in human history for multiple factors, even considering her many horrors. People vote with their feet.

Capitalism- (~2008-2018) in my idealist phase, I blamed capitalism for many of the problems in the world. Around 2016, I started informally studying economics. I completely flopped my opinion. Capitalism is awesome!

Exploitation of Factory Workers- I used to think corporations exploited workers. But factory jobs are way better than farming, That is why you don't see factory workers running back to the fields. People want to move to cities and provide more opportunities for their family. Back to the beauty of capitalism. If you do not have two consenting parties agreeing, it isn't capitalism. US companies go to other countries for cheaper labor (among other factors), but the workers go to those companies because the wages are worth it.

Racism in the US (~2016-2021)- I used to think America was super racist. After trying to prove how racist America is, I found the topic very difficult to prove. The evidence exists, but it isn't as strong as I thought. I'm not saying America isn't racist, but it's not 1968. Too many American act like it's still 1968.

Police Brutality- (2018-2021) Similar to racism. As I argued with other people and got more informed, I changed my mind. I believed a lot of the media about policing. Now I think police have an extremely difficult job. The bad apples, who are few, make a bad name. The police union helps protect bad cops because local governments do not have the funding to pay higher wages. I would personally make the use of force less strict, but I don't think the main narrative is correct.

US Constitution- I thought it was so outdated. Now I admire the achievement, and it's ability to evolve (slowly) and keep the US thriving. The separation of power and checks and balances have been great. Being hard to change is a feature not a bug.

Free Will- I used to love free will. I first encountered serious free will discussions in the early 2010s. Now, I like the idea and live my life as if it is true. See post here.

God- I grew up believing there was a God as a default position. I seriously didn't know it was optional. I never believed in any religion. I remember thinking the idea of only one of the religious being correct and all others being wrong was very unlikely. As I learned and experienced more, the idea of a God became less and less likely. Depending on how God is defined, I doubt there is a God, especially not a God anything like one from a religion.

Jesus- (~2013) I was a more militant atheist for a while. While arguing with a friend about mostly Jesus, I let my confirmation and selection bias get the best of me. For a short while, I believed the person Jesus was completely fictional. It's hard to maintain such a crazy idea, and I quickly realized that Jesus was a Jewish man crucified by the Romans with a group of followers who became the Christians.

Helping Others- I used to think you could help people change by caring and trying. If I gave them the right argument or information or showed them something, they would change a bad behavior. I still think people can help others, but I realize now it is really hard and most importantly the person has to want to change. Not just say they want to change, but want to change. People can help nudge others.

Following Your Passion- terrible idea alert! I believed my teachers and adults who said follow your passion. After trying to follow my passion and failing to find anything close to happiness, I reevaluated. Don't follow your passion! Analyze and evaluate many options and make an informed choice based on realistic probabilities and statistics. Follow likely and reasonable outcomes. If you want to shoot for the stars have a deadline and backup plan.

Having Kids- I used to think having kids was dumb because of environmental reasons. Then I figured less people would have better lives because there would be more resources available. After studying economics more, I see population differently. Higher populations have many benefits, economic growth and technological innovations for name two. As stated above, I think depopulation is a bigger concern. Ties to capitalism and economics.

Rationality- I used to think people were extremely irrational. Now, I've realized more that people are very rational when you adjust for their backgrounds, education, environment, etc. I, or you, might think a person is being irrational, but we don't know how they feel or think.

Death Penalty- I've gone back and forth on this too. 

CONCLUSION

I feel like I've changed my mind a decent amount. Still, I don't think I have changed much as a person.

For most of the ideas above, I've just become more moderate. My media has also become more moderate. So maybe, I've just adapted to my media consumption more than I've actually changed my mind.

I don't see any of these topics having influenced my values. Most of my ideas have swayed to what creates a world with less suffering. I was more of a utilitarian well before I knew what utilitarianism was.